No way to solve the land mess in rv, kikuyus have a right to own to the land

[TikTok]

Listen all now that we are talking land,

land issues in kenya will never end unless the government addresses the issue of squatters and unless leaders learn how to address the wananchi in good language.... Read this (am sure in 20yrs there will be more land classes in msambweni depending on how they will handle this resettlement issues... )

nationmedia.com | daily nation | news | sugar firm land row turns bitter

Someone help me here:

1. What formula did the dc use to identify that only 800 out of 1500 are "genuine squatters"???
2. So if the others will not get land - (only 800 will be resettled) where will the other 700 go? do they have a land too? i am sure some will just end up in urban slums again.
3. Even if they are squatters they have a right to compensation for what they have invested on that land - they developed the land and they build their houses - the question for the dc to answer (*and address) is the root cause - what made this people squatters in their lives?
4. Giving each squatter 5.5 acres as new lands is okay - but how sure are we all these people want to be farmers?
5. Will the 5.5 acres be used and utilized economically to the benefit of the squatter and the government? Why not just rethink about the resettlement concept and land utility value!

pasted story below

sugar firm land row turns bitter story by mathias ringa publication date: 4/25/2008 tempers flared when the government declared that only 800 squatters at the controversial sugar project in msambweni were genuine and would be resettled. Squatters on the 13,000-acre farm to be occupied by the kwale international sugar company ltd complained thursday that the millers’ employees were indiscriminately cutting down their cash crops. The government immediately deployed armed administration police to protect the employees against possible attack by the angry squatters. Destruction ramisi ward councillor, iddi masemo, urged the government to stop the destruction of trees such as mango, coconut, orange, and banana among others. “we told the dc to restrain the sugar firm from cutting down our cash crops, but the appeal fell on deaf ears,” mr masemo said thursday. Area dc, gilbert kitiyo, said genuine squatters would be settled at kanani. Speaking to the nation at msambweni, the dc said that the government had identified only about 800 villagers as genuine squatters out of the 1,500 who live on the land. Mr kitiyo said each squatter would be allocated 5.5 acres with title deeds. However, he ruled out compensation for the cash crops, saying the squatters had developed the land illegally. “the squatters were occupying the land illegally and should not expect any compensation for their houses and trees. They should count themselves lucky that the government will settle them,” he said. He called on aggrieved squatters to send their complaints to his committee, which was set up by the government to address the land problems. Order to quit “we can’t sit back and let a few individuals derail a project that will create jobs. Residents who defy the government order to quit will face the consequences,” the dc warned. Sugar firm manager, ambrose abungu, said they planned to clear all the cash crop trees on the land. Cane farming should have started in january, but the squatters had been giving the company a torrid time, he said. “we gave notice to the squatters to leave the land, but most of them are defiant, yet they know very well that the plots are not theirs,” he said, adding, they plan to begin cane farming in june, and land preparation is already in progress.

[TikTok]

Originally Posted by doubled19734

Moi collaborated with Kikuyu and Indian elite??????? Correct me if i'm wrong but are the following Kikuyu?

Nicholas Biwott, William Ruto, Henry Kosgey, Hosea Kiplagat, Joshua Kulei, Zakayo Cheruiyot, Zipporah Kittony........e.t.c.

Should the "ordinary" Kalenjin be victimised because of these corrupt politicians? many who are still politically active and still very popular.

Moi started messing up from 1982 after the coup, he wasn't bad before then.

You do not have to be selective. Be truthful and we will address this issue in a civil manner. Giving Moi a pass is treason by itself. I'll leave it at that.

[TikTok]

Originally Posted by martin77

The sheer foolishness of the above statement makes one want to hang his head in shame.

Is this the young generation waiting to take Kenya to the heights of development?

The utter tribal bigotry and hatred makes one think that maybe we are better of with the Michukis and Ntimamas.

Do you think that wretched pile of suffering humanity in the camps was eating in the same table with Moi? They were suffering through those terrible years, as were the ordinary Kales and everybody else. On moi's table were men like ruto and kosgei who until recently have rediscovered that democracy can be used to return to the gravy train if they can convince gulible people like you that your fellow peasants are your enemies.

God help this country

As.shole mungiki martin77 trying so hard to defend the indefensible. Yes, the wretched people in the camps were eating in the same table with Kenyatta, Moi, and Kibaki when poor Kalenjins were sufferring and Luo babies, children and mothers were being shot on site. And don't forget also on Moi's table were wakina Ndegwa, Githunguri, Uhuru, Kanyoutu et al. Selective dispension of facts wont do. So go sh.it in case you get a bloated stomach.

[TikTok]

Originally Posted by Ni_Diambo

TikTok, you never cease to amaze me. I suspect you have a dual personality. At times you utter amazing irrationality. But at others like this, your logic is spot-on.

The principle: If you buy stolen goods, are they yours?

Sasa Ni_Diambo, why do you give me such bombastic labels? Sijui split personality, utter irrationality, ei! I fear what you will label me next as, disjointed this? Comboluted that? Kweli umesoma. I suspect you have a background in psychology.

Going to principle: From an ethical stand point, and also from a legal stand point, buying stolen goods knowingly or unknowingly does not make them yours. If you buy them knowingly, then it is outright crime by association. If you buy them unkowingly and happens to know later on, due process dictates that you surrender the buy and ask for refund from the seller through legal recourse. That is how civilised societies work.

[Miscellaneous]

Originally Posted by tiktok

sasa ni_diambo, why do you give me such bombastic labels? sijui split personality, utter irrationality, ei! i fear what you will label me next as, disjointed this? comboluted that? kweli umesoma. I suspect you have a background in psychology. Going to principle: from an ethical stand point, and also from a legal stand point, buying stolen goods knowingly or unknowingly does not make them yours. If you buy them knowingly, then it is outright crime by association. If you buy them unkowingly and happens to know later on, due process dictates that you surrender the buy and ask for refund from the seller through legal recourse. That is how civilised societies work.

rift valley has its owners since ad


nilotic migrations highland nilotes

the nilotes moved out of their original homeland which was to the west of lake turkana, between 10th and 14th centuries ad. They moved in different directions and these consisted of the kalenjin, the maasai, the turkana, the iteso and the luo.

The first group which was made up of the kalenjin, moved southwards into kenya and this became the ancestors of the kalenjin. At about 1000 ad the pre-kalenjin communities were occupying the uasin gishu plateau. On the eastern side of the kalenjin another very important expansion was taking place which led to the withdrawal of the kalenjin from some of the grasslands along the rift valley, which they formerly occupied, to their present homes. This is of course, in reference to the expansion of the maasai southwards along the rift valley, which dates from the 1600 ad.

the maasai drove the kalenjin from the eastern grazing lands in the nakuru and tugen areas towards the present elgeyo, elgon, nandi and kipsigis. With the resulting loss of much of their grazing lands, the kalenjin were forced to reduce their herds and to rely more on agriculture. Also the different kalenjin groups were isolated permanently into separate communities such as kipsigis, nandi, tugen.


later the kalenjin migrated to sirikwa. Thus the nandi, elgeyo, kipsigis and maasai hived of to immigrant settlers at sirikwa and migrated to the present homeland. The bok came from sirikwa in the elgeyo area and then moved on to kitale and stayed there for about five years and then to swam hill (malikisi) where they settled. Plain nilotes the maasai moved into the highlands before settling in the rift valley area by the 18th century.

By the 19th century, the maasai society began to disintegrate as a result of wars. The kalenjin, especially the nandi began to expand into the western highlands at the expense of the maasai. Other bantu communities, especially the kikuyu and the kamba also exploited the situation to extend their territories into what were formerly maasai areas.

River lake nilotes the luo group moved up from lake turkana area, westwards to the lake albert and river nile. They began moving southwards in the 14th and 15th centuries and gradually settled in kenya between the 15th and 17th centuries ad. 1500 ad marked the advent of the luo who displaced the luyia speakers from the lake basin.

The luo occupation of the lake region during the last 500 years resulted in the retreat of the luhyia eastwards to higher ground. The teso of busia district originated in the sudan and then moved on to the country of the karamajong. From here they dispersed, and some went to turkana and others to soroti. They then moved into ngora in the teso district of uganda, kumi, kachubalang in the same district and then into kanginima, which is the teso country of uganda and on into tororo and akoret in uganda. They dispersed and spread all over the place and by the 18th century, they were settled in their present homeland in busia district.


sources: i) kenya an official handbook ii) story of africa from the earliest times, book one, a.j. Willis iii) longman ghc, e s atieno odhiambo, john n b, n i were

[doubled19734]

The Kalenjin movement was not simply the development of a people's identity. The British colonial government supported the Kalenjin movement and sponsored the Kalenjin monthly magazine out of a desire to foster anti-Gikuyu sentiments during the Mau Mau emergency. The Mau Mau movement was a mostly Gikuyu-led revolt against British colonialism that provoked an official state of emergency lasting from October 1952 to January 1960. Gikuyu conflicts both with the British and with non-Gikuyu tribes (including the Kalenjin) factored in the creation of Kalenjin solidarity and unity.

http://www.everyculture.com/wc/Japan.../Kalenjin.html

[doubled19734]

Nandi and Other Kalenjin Peoples
History and Cultural Relations

The oral traditions of all the Nilotic peoples of East Africa refer to northern origins. There is a consensus among historians and linguists that the Plains and Highland Nilotes migrated from a region near the southern border of Ethiopia and Sudan shortly before the beginning of the Christian Era and diverged into separate communities shortly thereafter. Ehret (1971) believes that pre-Kalenjin who already were cattle keepers and had age sets lived in the western Kenya highlands 2,000 years ago. Presumably, these people absorbed other populations already living in the region. From some time after A.D. 500 to about A.D. 1600, there seems to have been a series of migrations eastward and southward from near Mount Elgon. Migrations were complex, and there are competing theories about their details.

The Nandi and Kipsigis, in response to Maasai expansion, borrowed from the Maasai some of the traits that distinguish them from other Kalenjin: large-scale economic dependence on herding, military organization and aggressive cattle raiding, and centralized religious-political leadership. The family that established the office of orkoiyot (warlord/diviner) among both the Nandi and Kipsigis were nineteenth-century Maasai immigrants. By 1800, both the Nandi and Kipsigis were expanding at the expense of the Maasai. This process was halted in 1905 by the imposition of British colonial rule.

Nandi and Other Kalenjin Peoples History and Cultural Relations

[Ni_Diambo]

Originally Posted by TikTok

Sasa Ni_Diambo, why do you give me such bombastic labels? Sijui split personality, utter irrationality, ei! I fear what you will label me next as, disjointed this? Comboluted that? Kweli umesoma. I suspect you have a background in psychology.

Going to principle: From an ethical stand point, and also from a legal stand point, buying stolen goods knowingly or unknowingly does not make them yours. If you buy them knowingly, then it is outright crime by association. If you buy them unkowingly and happens to know later on, due process dictates that you surrender the buy and ask for refund from the seller through legal recourse. That is how civilised societies work.

TikTok, si kwa ubaya. In fact I don't know psych. Wala sio kisomo (kila mtu ana 8-4-4 yake). I just found your logic here to be making a lot of sense, and straight to the point. Pole kama nime kutisha

Unajua kuna area zingine umenilima sana.

[staple]

Originally Posted by TikTok

Owning something through a flawed system does not make one the rightful owner. I believe you have heard the term, "handling stolen property". If someone steals and car and sells it to you, you are liable for the theft unless proven to be a non-accomplice. Even then you cannot retain the car even if you bought it legally because there is an illegality to the actual ownership itself.

Back to the RV land issue. The easiest way is to complete the Ndung'u report and come up with a white paper on how land will be managed in RV and whole of Kenya, otherwise my suggestions would be for the IDPs to forcfully settle themselves in central province's huge tracts of land currently owned by a few politically connected individuals.

To make matters worse, and that is why I always cringe when any minister opens his mouth to talk, none other than Amos Kimuya last year called land title deeds as just pieces of paper when they were evicting Kalenjins from a water catchment area. The same happened with teh Ogiek community, teh Saboat peopel and peasants in Malindi. Kalenjins took note. Kenyans took note. Saboats went military. Now DRK will also insist that those are just pieces of paper.

I wish to be educate don something. Before the Mzungu took these chunks of land in question, who owned it and how did they give it up? If at all the Kiuks were the rightful owners then, please let them be re-settled there. if there was some foul play and some form of crooked laws (read constitution) was in force, then let us re-look at this. Yes, whoever said a kale cannot own land in Central prov. is right. I personally know of a non-GEMA whose bus was not alloed to take any passenger just because it came from Nyanza. Each time he was told there is a queue yet other mats and buses kept on arriving at the Nyeri stage and picking passengers. On realisng that a game was being played, he decided to take off and was escorted out of the town all the way to Karatina. He only managed to pick passengers just after the Thika fly-over! All these make people bitter and say that are some people protected by the constitution while others are not! We want justice but this is selected justice. With such attitude and hostility you cannot even think of owning land in Central.
A friend wanted to buy a pice of land that was on sale in Limuru and got a rude shock. the small plot was being sold at 180k. He went and asked the seller who said the land was 350k. So the guy asked him to take the 150k he had at hand and he would settle the difference in three months when his loan came though. The seller refused and said it was full payment and cash in a week's time. Later the land was sold to a Kiuk at 170k and in instalments. Is that what you call brotherly love as its being hyped that all Kenyans are brothers and sisters! Kiuks have always been very hostile while the others have been very welcoming and tolerant. The same is seen even back home at the coast. Hawa watu hawana moyo wa undugu lakini watawalwa na ubinafsi. Sorry but its true. Tuseme ukweli.

[phileasfogg]

Originally Posted by staple

I wish to be educate don something. Before the Mzungu took these chunks of land in question, who owned it and how did they give it up? If at all the Kiuks were the rightful owners then, please let them be re-settled there. if there was some foul play and some form of crooked laws (read constitution) was in force, then let us re-look at this. Yes, whoever said a kale cannot own land in Central prov. is right. I personally know of a non-GEMA whose bus was not alloed to take any passenger just because it came from Nyanza. Each time he was told there is a queue yet other mats and buses kept on arriving at the Nyeri stage and picking passengers. On realisng that a game was being played, he decided to take off and was escorted out of the town all the way to Karatina. He only managed to pick passengers just after the Thika fly-over! All these make people bitter and say that are some people protected by the constitution while others are not! We want justice but this is selected justice. With such attitude and hostility you cannot even think of owning land in Central.
A friend wanted to buy a pice of land that was on sale in Limuru and got a rude shock. the small plot was being sold at 180k. He went and asked the seller who said the land was 350k. So the guy asked him to take the 150k he had at hand and he would settle the difference in three months when his loan came though. The seller refused and said it was full payment and cash in a week's time. Later the land was sold to a Kiuk at 170k and in instalments. Is that what you call brotherly love as its being hyped that all Kenyans are brothers and sisters! Kiuks have always been very hostile while the others have been very welcoming and tolerant. The same is seen even back home at the coast. Hawa watu hawana moyo wa undugu lakini watawalwa na ubinafsi. Sorry but its true. Tuseme ukweli.

Jamaa,

terrifically interesting. But then it seems you have a difficulty: you can't keep your stereotypes straight. The stereotype that Gikuyu love money excessively - so much so that they are willing to sell their mothers, as someone once said to me - cannot be maintained if they're willing to forego such huge gains in the name of tribal solidarity. Which stereotype will you discard?