[teejay]

>Teejay my friend, I will teach you a bit about your own faith.
>Believe me, I don't say this with haughtiness. You said
>Abraham never married hagar as a second wife, well, the Bible
>says otehrwise...
>
>"And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian,
>after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and
>gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." GENESIS 16:3

Thank you for attempting to teach me some faith Coach. This is what you should first know when you are reading the bible coach. That:

It was written thousands of years ago for and by people that lived in culture much different from our own. The writings however focus on principles that are universally true, therefore many of the historical accounts, illustrations they use and references they make can only be understood with some knowledge of the time and culture in which they lived. At this point it is worth noting that Man’s culture is not God’s culture and works. Abraham and his wife being in this category of man is therefore acting according to their culture when it comes to some issues.

Now according to ancient Jewish Marriage procedures or let me say traditions there were three ways in which marriage commenced.

1. With money (as when a man hands a woman an object of value, such as a ring or a coin, for the purpose of contracted marriage, and in the presence of two witnesses, and she actively accepts)
2. Through a shtar, (a contract containing the betrothal declaration phrased as "through this contract")
3. By sexual intercourse with the intention of creating a bond of marriage, a method strongly discouraged by the rabbinic sages, and I frown upon it upon it to. I think it is not immoral but indecent. Any woman in here can tell you that they distaste such animalistic arrangement.

It is the third type that we must concentrate on, A society sets out its tradition as it continues to evolve. The society in which Abraham lived was not any different they had with time adopted their own traditions among them matrimonial traditions. It must be noted that Man’s ways are not God’s ways.

Having seen that Abraham applied the third way of “marrying” we must therefore look at the reference to Hagar as wife (his) in that light and not as ordained by God. Thus even the bible refers to Hagar as wife in that dimension of the above ancient Jewish tradition.

Coach I hope you do understand now where am coming from when am saying that Hagar was not Abraham’s wife.

One may want to say that but they had a child, but I would say that even though a child is conceived out of wedlock it still belongs to the two sexual partners regardless of whether they cohabit, or live under any other arrangement. It the nature of the relationship that paints brightly or stains the brightness of the institution under which such child should begotten. Ishmael was tainted. Thus Illegitimate in that manner.

Another point I want to add it that in Gen 16.3 says that Sarah advised Abraham to Have Hagar so as to bear a child that she would regard as her own. By this time in earth’s history, polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God, and was fatal to the sacredness and peace of the family relation. Abraham's marriage with Hagar resulted in evil, not only to his own household, but to future generations. Going by the third Statement above Hagar became Abraham’s wife, but not according to God’s plan. Indeed we God reproving Hagar in the Desert when HE addressed her as "Hagar, Sarah’s maid," to remind her of her position and her duty, he bade her, to "Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands." In fact Hagar is referred to as Maidservant and not wife in the subsequent verses until her exit from the household of Abraham. In my opinion I would say that it is Both Sarah’s and Abraham’s distrust in divine promise that they made the error of Hagar’s marriage.

>Polygamy is also common and mentionned a lot in the Bible and
>is not something peculiar only to Islam as you have assumed. I
>will show you many instances where great men mentionned in the
>Bible had more than one wife and the practise of polygamy was
>allowed and its rules were laid down...

1. Know that being great a man does not make one great before the Lord.

2. Being a human being one is prone to temptation and polygamy is one of those temptations one greatness does not immunize them against the desires of the flesh.

3. The Fact that it is recorded in the bible that a great man practiced polygamy does not mean that God was in favour of that act. If fact reading those stories very keenly you will discover that many a times such polygamous arrangements come with a myriad of problems. A good example is Solomon one of the wisest men the earth has ever known. His continuous marriage even unto foreign women led him to deviate from observing God’s commands.

4. Coach does it mean that when a great man is headed in the ditch you do also abide by his path simply because he is great.

>- If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her
>duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. EXODUS 21:10

Of course this was a remedy for Moses granted the Lustful Jewish mean just like he later allowed them divorce certificates at the time. Once again may I emphasis that you should try and find out under what circumstances some directives were issued out. Otherwise you are always in danger of misquoting

>Even though you feel uncomfortable with polygamy, the Bible
>does call Hagar a "WIFE", here...

According to me what Abraham did was just responding to his wife and thus had sexual relations with another woman with a purpose of having a child. Any society in this world looks at such arrangement (devoid of marriage celebrations and rituals, be it traditional or Modern) with nywandwad eyes. Once again may repetitively direct you to begin with my starting paragraph above.

>God did not make ONE WOMAN FOR ONE MAN as you claim because
>the NT, Matthew 22:23-32 tells us that a man should marry the
>widow of his brother. This surely goes against what you are
>propagating here teejay.

First of all you me answer you the way Christ answered that same lie. Ye doe err cause ye know not the scripture nor what they say for you read copy and paste to justify they cause and for that you miss the point by a universe.

The Bible is not the Koran therefore read it not the way you cram the Koran while visualizing it on the palm of your hands.

>You are now saying something that contadicts the whole purpose
>of scripture. Holy men like Abraham, Moses, Jesus PBUT were
>exceptional men whose characters people should try to emulate.
>If you don't follow their actions, what then are you learning
>from teh scriptures? Please do tell me. If Abraham is good
>enough to have two wives, why isn't teejay?

When emulating these people you mention here one should not that it because of their faith in God that they were counted worthy of great works. Abraham, Moses were human beings and when tempted at times fell prey to the temptations. Nevertheless there were good things about these, but I can assure that polygamy and sexual perversion are non of those Good lessons that we can learn form the great men.

I know you have a desire to teach me about my faith. Well you have mad s step in the right direction but you still need to know a few things. First Christianity is not tackled by carnal wisdom. Secondly we Christians mature in faithful Christians by continuously reading and studying the bible and praying. This involves various stages

1. Milk stage(a person being feed and given useful tips)
2. Born stage (mature stage where you are ready to grasp and tackle most things as you mature more)

You my friend are far from achieving this despite your cramming of the bible