[ATLian]

>Jesus came to establish a new order, so in effect,
>Christianity started with Jesus. If you can find a place in
>the bible where Jesus advocated the murder of innocents to
>make a theological point, bring it up so we can discuss it
>openly.

Christians believe that Jesus is god. Therefore all commandments made by god in the Old Testament were also made by Jesus, and all innocents murdered by god can also be attributed to Jesus. When god decided to drown the entire world and in the process kill every innocent baby from China to Chile, Jesus was there. When god led his armies in mass genocide all over the Old Testament resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent babies, Jesus was there. When god categorically commanded his armies to wipe out all living things, including babies, plants and livestock from some captured cities, Jesus was there. Are those enough examples? The only way you can exonerate jesus from this one is if you claim that he isn't god. if you claim he is god, then you have to hold him culpable for all those murders.

Secondly, doesn't Jesus himself say that he came to fulfil the law, not abolish it. Meaning that he came to continue the Old Testament law, not to bring any new laws. So what's this new order story? Plus, god is meant to be perfect. He doesn't change. It is therefore absurd to claim that he changed his laws from the Old to the New Testament. Men change because we are not perfect and we cannot see what the future holds. God sees all the future, and he is perfect, therefore if he made a commandment in 1 Gabzillion BC, then that same commandment will hold true and unchangeable in 1 gabzillion AD. Saying that Jesus came to establish a new order is tacitly implying that the old order was flawed. Unless you beleive that god isn't perfect, this cannot be true.