[satjas]

Hey Msoto

>Hi Satjas
>We most likely will disagree on many issues.

I respect that.

>I have not brandished any name about 'homosexuals' in this
>argument i think that is offensive and inconsiderate.

call a spade a spade........one only gets offended if one chooses to be offended.

>Those who live in Saudi Arabia and have been able to developed
>a different view of the sharia law. Its because they have been
>exposed to different opportunities. Since this is true...we
>can extrapolate that if they feel that the law is limiting
>they can always relocate to another country. There are under
>no obligation to stay in Saudi Arabia for the rest of their
>lives. They can just cross the border into one of the
>neigbouring countries.

You make it sound so easy, almost like moving from one room of a house into the other. Reality my friend Msoto speaks otherwise. And what excuse will they give for moving out? That they were dissatisfied with the sharia law??? C'mon Msoto, even you know that that is a recipe for disaster...that's inviting an execution right there!!!!!


>It is possible that some few individuals may exist who are
>dissatisfied with the system and would like to leave but dont
>know where.

aha, you have redeemed yourself.....but its not a few, it's many, but the hold of religion prevents them from speaking out loud.......guess what, WAFA SULTAN has received death threats, that courageous woman. Mbajuni, in case you read this, she should be a role model.

>Even the devil..can quote scripture. Thus its very easy to
>pick passages from different parts and twist the information
>so as to add credence as to what you believe to be true.

hence the fallacy of these religious books, why would a perfect God create a shambles with incoherrent, misinterpreted ,gobbledegook???? and before you quote me silly i have read the bible and the kooran too. Many contradictions.

>I never said God communicated with only Christians and
>Muslims. I think God communicates with everybody. People
>intepret this communication differently.

Perhaps herein lies the problem. You say this yet each one of the above claim to be the correct true ones to communicate with God via their books!!!!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

>I think by being labelled a "christian" it means that one
>follows christ's teachings based on what is in the bible.

The bible is not an authority on God, the bible may have wonderful stories written by people who were inspired by Jesus, but it was never Jesus's story...he never wrote it...as such it is not authentically Jesus's teachings per se.


> If you are gay...you can believe in God...however
>if you choose to be christian you cannt then be gay. Its
>against tenets of christiniaty and islam so why do you want to
>be that?

ok so let's get this right....God talks to EVERYBODY, including christians and gays and God wouldn't have a problem with that otherwise God wouldn't talk to them. But the christians who believe in the Bible and via it Jesus and thus God have a problem with Gays despite the fact that God talks to them and as such they cannot be included in the exclusive christian club, which is based on Jesus's teachings above love for ALL. Hmm...i'm out of breath here.......Therefore we conclude that the Christian Club has more to offer than God's Club (Humanity) just like a paying members (allegiance to Jesus) club has more benefits than an ordinary non paying (allegiance to nothing in particular) club.
God. i love you guys, especially when you come up with such rhetoric......smashing!!!!


>No one is under any obligation to follow christianity or islam
>as a by stander?

you talk about religions that actively proselytize (what happened to the african before the arab or white man came??? were the africans bystanders? In fact they were at peace with themselves)

> Do you choose not to eat meat...because
>Hindus believe that cows are sacred? Would you become a hindu
>so that you can claim how their beliefs are intolerant to
>people eating meat?

Msoto, Hindu's do not proselytize, have you ever met one???? I think not. I choose not to eat meat because i wouldn't take another life just to satisfy my tastes. That is common sense. Yet to quote your bible "thou shalt not kill" has obviously lost meaning to you. Or perhaps you can find me a bible that says " thou shalt not kill another man only but anything else"????

>I cannot understand God...I believe that through the holy
>spirit and his will things will become clear to me.

Your will for you is God's will for you. God's will for you is not your will, it is still God's will. But what is God's will? Do you think you are doing all your actions in your day to day life according to God's will?? If we all did God's will this place would become heaven overnight. Yet for 2000yrs you have been doing "God's will" but to no avail. it's time for a paradigm shift my friend.

> Yes I have a "free-will" but this perhaps is "limited"
>in terms of understanding God.

Then you do not have freewill.....freewill cannot be limited by ANYTHING, it's simply Free!!! Please think about this deeply. One can understand God but one cannot comprehend God.

> He is omnipotent, omnipresent,
>omniscient. I cannot complain or even begin to fathom with any
>of my faculties what his actions are.

Absolutely in agreement with you. See, we have some things in common too!!!!

>Why does He "apparently
>seem" so against gays yet gays can also reach to Him? As I
>said I am an inferior being...limited by my sentient capacity
>to analyse superior beings.

First of all it would do you justice to understand that you are not inferior, just as no one is superior to you. Likewise, think not for God, let God deal with His gay issue. But most importantly do not rely on your bible as an inference tool. This 'apparent' veil is what has lead to bigotry in this world. I urge you not to be part of it. It may seem like the hardest thing you have ever done, however when you shed the unnecessary baggage of religious dogmas you will truly become en-light-tened( i.e. less heavy)


>Can ant, a human ant, siafu, describe a human being
>completely, psychologically, physiologically, culturally,
>societally, historically? A human being can describe an ant
>completely with the different superlatives mentioned but can a
>siafu?

on what grounds can we say that an ant has no description for us? how do we know? If anything we should take a lesson from them.....see how they work as a team, they behave like ONE, what a good example for all of us. How can they organize themselves so well that we humans ( so called superior beings) cannot?? Here comes Coach yelling "the miracles of allah"!!!!!!!

>That is what I feel Satjas you want me to do....and I see it
>as pointless an exercise in futility.

when one aims for the moon one might not get there, but one won't have their feet in mud either. Like i said, you choose if you think it is futile

>When I stated that God is omnipotent, omniscient,
>omnipresent....then my thinking has already been limited.

OK, i must admit i did not understand what you meant above.

>You are attempting to use a 1 meter rule to measure an
>infinite distance and conclude a finite distance.
>This is how I see it.

you see wrong my friend 1 x infinity = infinity...the one metre rule still has a purpose. It is always very difficult to see something from another person's perspective. Perhaps we are on different wave-lengths here...same frequency but different wave-lengths.

>If I can understand then I cannot fail to reason. I dont think
>those two are as separate as you make them to be.

A smoker can understand that smoking kills, but a smoker may continue to smoke because he/she cannot see any reason to give up.Hence the smoker who understands it kills has failed to reason.

> I could
>reason and my reason could be wrong. However one's ability to
>reason or to make that statement is determined by whether they
>understand or not. I dont think you can reason what you cannot
>understand.

i have very carefully read what you have said above. My conclusion is, like you said in your last statement that one cannot reason if one cannot understand....therefore unless i understand something i will not be able to reason and hence my reason can/should not be wrong otherwise it means i never understood in the first place......hmm, going around in circles.....

>I cannot comprehend what God thinks...is different from
>understanding and being aware through faith of what God would
>expect me to do.

Msoto, God expects you to do nothing. I know they'll all shout blasphemy, but think about it...if God is Omnipotent then God will make you do the things he wants you to do even if you know about it or not. Its like being a pawn on a chess board. So remember God has no expectations of you either, for if God is all knowing then yeah, God knows exactly what you will do in year 2030 at 9.30 hrs on a march monday morning, so why worry????

> What God expects christians/ muslims to do is
>outlined in the bible/koran and in the teachings of
>christianity and islam. I can comprehend what a good christian
>is expected to be from the sources mentioned above.

That is where the problem lies, the religions have made it so manifest that these books have all the codes to proper behaviour to acquire God's blessings whilst in truth it's only bondage and lack of mental freedom.

>Just because I am a christian does not mean i discount
>evolution. To give a short example. First I see this two as
>separate issues. One deals with scientific methodology this is
>evolution and christianity deals with faith.

Every single thing that you do in life is based on what your spirit feels. It is impossible to seperate science and faith or God. Well, who created science in the first place???

>Thank you for the comments. I feel that my faith was
>questioned...at the same time...i feel that i will continue
>with it "blindly".

and that is why "bad" things happen in life when good men choose to do nothing, feeling blissfully happy in following things blindly.

>It brings contentment to me such that few
>things actually do. Its in a way my self-actualization. I
>think for you...its in becoming a custodian of truth. I
>respect that we have different perspectives.

Yet remember the truth that I have brought out to you, to share unselfishly in the abundance of higher truths that may be revealed to us, by persons unknown but with an inkling that it might be God speaking to us; so blossom forth my child in full knowledge that you have to do nothing to please Me, I expect nothing of you and be true to yourself always. Satjas respects you too.

-the paradigm shifter.....God's friend...the God who loves gays too!!!!

The soul is that which beholds beauty even when the mind denies it.