[teejay]

>Man of Satan eh? You sure know nothing about him do you?

I need to know nothing about him any way. He is only important as far passing exams is concerned

>The issue of Jesus PBUh being the son of God and the issue of
>trinity can take us ages to discuss. I don't have time at the
>moment and even if we discuss it, we'd still be where we
>started (you believeing that he is a son of God and me
>believing taht he is the Messenger of God).

So then where is your belief in him? You know, Christ said that God is spirit and He must be worshipped in spirit. The spirit of the Lord says that Christ is God’s son and that He and the father are one. Muslims say nay he is not God’s son. This then means they are calling Christ and God’s spirit a lair. How then can a perpetual lair like Christ be a messenger of God Like these Muslims purport? Christ ... “if you have seen me you have seen the father”. Does it mean that Father (God) is also a liar? Allah is not God lets not be cheated. Allah is something else.

I believe I’m without no doubt absolutely correct to say that Muslims believe in the Torah (the First five books of the bible-which is where most of their sharia laws have been derived) and also the Injeel (Gospel – which contains the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ back to heaven). The Injeel says Christ is son of God, But Mohammad in trying in his “wisdom” thought this was abstruse and decided to re write the it ending up with the Quran (Apparently after the supposed appearance of Angel Gabriel.), which he claimed was a divine book. Having traced Muhammad’s history since his early childhood I find him nowhere in that life accepting Christ’s salvation but only his own religion Islam. In fact as Ismail K Poonawal a renown Islamic scholar states the quran regards the teaching of any messengers that were, before(including Christ) Muhammad as outdated. This statement is at logger heads with Christ’s word that says... “what I say to you now I say unto all.” Meaning that the word of God is for people of all ages and it is therefore impossible to claim it outdated.

>Again, you show your ignorance of Islamic history and the man
>behind it all. Muhammad PBUH taught about his fellow Messenger
>Jesus PBUH and taught people that he was a Messenger like
>himself. he never uttered a negative thing about Jesus PBUH
>and any Muslim who says anything bad about Jesus PBUH is NOT
>considered to be a Muslim. But, we reject the things that some
>Christians later attributed to him vis a vis calling him God
>(or son God depending on who you ask).

Christ Himself said he was son of God. And King David said somewhere in the book of Palms upon being filled by the spirit... “today I have made you my son” This was not for David but He was talking about Christ. In another place David says.... you will not let the body of your Holy one rot” David died and was buried but Christ rose to Claim heavenly Glory. He went to be with the father who sent him. Even after Christ is baptized a voice descended from heaven stating clearly that.... “This is my beloved son...” This was God himself saying this. It was said so that the people who there at the time would believe. But muslims reject that- God’s own voice (in your own plain words coach).Now you want to call God a Lair? Allah is truly not The God of Abraham, Isaac Jacob and Ishmael. He (allah) is that Jinn that appeared to Mohammad in the desert as an angel of light. I said it and I will say it again. A tree bears after its own kind. If latter day Muslims say Christ was not God’s son, then Muhammad also said so long ago. I know these phrases are a great sin to the ears of muslims and fatwa can be declared on me at any time, but I have to say it.

In the book of Mathew 4:3 even satan while tempting Christ acknowledges that He (Christ) is son of God. It is worthy to note that Satan is not under any circumstance a Christian of any sort. Properly speaking he is Anti Christ and by extension Anti God and anything that is godly. That is not the only scene where the forces of evil bestow honor upon Christ as the son of God. After the Calming the storms of the sea Christ and his followers landed on the other side only to be met by demon possessed men. The demons vividly recognized him and they asked..... “What have you to do with us son of God” Mat 8:9 Again demons are not Christians.

>There are many predictions Muhammad PBUH made that have come
>true, do your homework before you speak but if you are
>extremely lethargic ask me and I shall lend you a hand.

Even if he did predict a thing it will be through some Jinn’s (genie) help. Even so I would not mind going through his prophesy. Go on. Splash them on the web. Arabic world is rich in Jinn stories. I believe that, it was a jinn rather than an angel of God that appeared to Muhammad. They say that Jinns are demons – according to Islamic folklore others are good and others are bad. But we know that demons are demons no good demon for they speak for their master and not for God.

In a verbatim literature recording Muhammad says this of the genies.... 'IT is revealed to me that a band of jinn listened to God's revelations and said: "We have heard a wondrous Koran giving guidance to the right path. We believed in it and shall henceforth serve none besides Our Lord. He (exalted be the glory of our Lord!) has taken no consort, nor has He begotten any children. The Blaspheming One among us has uttered a wanton falsehood against God, although we had supposed no man or jinnee could tell of Him what is untrue.".... Source:-The Koran.

Demons actually acknowledge the existence of God even in the bible, but not at any one minute or time will they leave cohesively and harmoniously co exist with God’s light as Muhammad insinuates here from one of his evil revelations. The genies here are actually the ones denying the father & son relationship that we Christians acknowledge. It is therefore absolutely right for one to say that Muhammad actually accepted the teachings of demons rather than believe the teaching of the Christians he interacted with and be saved and baptized like the Ethiopian man the Apostle Philip preached to.

Mohammad’s history shows that the orphaned boy actually met and listened to Christian’s teachings but never to be saved. Even the Koran is in agreement with that (of course it does not say that), but we know that Mohammad was not saved. Salvation comes to believers and he Mohammad according to history never embraced Christ wholly. Were it so then he would have been born again for we know that unless a man be born again he does not see the kingdom of heaven. It is therefore right to say that Muhammad refused to accept Christ and by extension the truth. Therefore, upon such people... “God sends strong delusion to make them believe what is false so that all maybe condemned who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2Thes 2:11-12. While retreating to the cave to meditate upon God knows what, the delusion came inform of an angel.

>If you have spoeken to Muslims (as you claim) then you
>wouldn't be asking me these questions. Muslims are with
>Christians, but not those who say that Jesus PBUH is God or
>His son. Just like you are not with Catholics on many of their
>teachings, Muslims are not with you on this particular issue.

But they are never with us Christians (bible believing) on any issue any way. At least Catholics, even if their teachings are perverted, know Christ is God’s Son. And you Christians out there listen to me. If you say Christ is not God’s son then you are lost like these Muslims and the Genies. And like Coach says you are with them and not with Christ. Know that there are two Christ’s ,The Muslim one who is not God’s son and our Savior Christ ,who is the true Son of God that dies for us and Arabs too - He who is a victor forever. I must admit human are just hard to deal with. Even demons see Christ and recognize him while humans want to be logically convinced. Well Our work in the Lord’s vineyard is to do his will and make sure that in us other people see Christ through our actions. It is upon the listeners if they are so willing do the rest and have their souls closer to Christ for in him there is eternity. When we are done with them who prefer politics we must shake off the dust of our shoes and move on.

A true Christian knows that..... “God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 anything that says otherwise is worth a toss I the garbage. By the way Coach am quoting from Injeel (Gospel).

>>I guess by bowing at the feet of the Roman pontiff " holy
>I don't wan to know about the beef you have with Catholics but
>I'd like to illumiinform you that Muslims don't take orders
>from the Vatican. Muslims also don't believe in the pope being
>"chosen by God" or anything of that sort. Get your facts right
>mister because you seem to be mixing things up.


David If you are listening. Please save this thread safely somewhere. We will see who is mixing things up when that time comes. The Middle East is already tiring of endless wars. They will be soon so conditioned that they will accept a peacemaker without a second thought. Many Muslims are already saying that Papa Ratzi should continue the unfinished work of initiating peace that Karol left behind -Viva il papa well how about that. That even muslims believe that the pope can unite the world!!! Islam will bow to the pope who is seen as the person who could possibly bring peace in this world. We know Christ came with a message of peace and salvation and he was instead humiliated and a killed. What peace do you think that a mere man can offer to Humans who have rejected the very author of that peace?

Coach the events am talking about were foreseen long ago and they must come to pass. I guess Muhammad did not even tell his followers about this eeh! The bible has predicted one event after another with meticulous precision. And all have and will come to pass.


>Majority of the Christians in the world are Catholics and you
>think they believe in a distorted religion. Interesting!

When you see color red, you don’t say its black, you call it red. Christians are supposed to be Christ’s followers and they are those follow Christ’s every teaching. This they do by reading from the bible. The bible says Thou shalt work on six days and on the seventh day ye shall rest in honor of the Sabbath (read red).... but this church (catholic) which says that the pope is above the church counter say.... by my divine power I change the Sabbath to sun day (read black).... and the whole world bows in reverent (read amen)!

Another verse says that... “there is one God and one mediator(Christ)...” but the Catholics say.... “Ask Mary (Who is dead) to mediate for them to Christ” Do I think they believe in distorted teachings or am I stating a fact? Moreover, Coach you yourself say that you don’t believe the pope is appointed of God. That in itself shows that you find fault in their system and that am absolutely right to say what am saying about this majority sect. There are so many other misguided teachings in this church which I will not mention for the obvious reasons.

The Christian religion is not about numbers but the heart.I was iluminated to hear you say that word majority. Like I have always said. There are people who are escorting others to heaven and others still attend the church services just to warm the seats for the one who will soon replace them. Christianity is not being judged by the numbers like I hear Muslims boasts of numbers and its fast expansion. Due to its burning and profound truths many people don’t like it. And what has the Catholic Church done? It has compromised the truth and instead is teaching for traditions of men. Mark 7 downward will show you what it is like to put aside God’s teachings for man’s traditions. As a result many people love to go the Catholic Church. You think because people are tagged Christians and they appear massive in numbers gives them an automatic inheritance of God’s Kingdom? Think again. Christ in his own words say that “not all who call him Lord including Muslims (who only accept piece meal truths about him) shall enter His Kingdom....” They shall go to Him saying but Lord I was a preacher and we cast demons out of people using your name and shall tell then depart thee from me for thou art a wicked servant!” Mark you this is not a blanket statement on the Catholic Church For I know that in that church God has his people there and when the time comes he will lift then out of the catholic Babylon.

Again the only thing I find interesting here is you. You prefer to believe that catholics in their masses are all Christians only to make 180 degrees turn to deny the pope as chosen of God. If Muslims don’t believe that pope is not sent by God then why do you say that you (Muslims) are with the majority Christians? These inconsistencies in Islam amuse me.

>The Muslims who attended did it out of respect, the same way
>I'd attend the funeral of my Christian or Jew neighbour, or
>their weddings, confirmations and other occassions for that
>matter. Catholicsalso have a seat for power which they
>recognise, it is easier for Muslims to hold dialogue with
>them. This is comparable to countries, a nation like Cuba
>might be "evil" in some people's eyes but they have a seat in
>the UN whereas a nation like Somalia has no govt and therefore
>no voice. This is just a simple analogy that I hope will
>elucidate things a tard for you.

I DO like your explanation. Really I do. You say that Catholics have a seat of Power! How marvelous. God sure does work in interesting ways. Without knowing the magnitude of your sentiments on this word power seat you just supported what is written in the book of revelation. It is this power that Crushed Muslims in the crusade eras. Crusades were wars fought on behalf of papal interest. It is this power that is driving America to hurt the world- when bush says he going to work closely with the pope The pope does not ask him to change his heart but engage him in world political dialogues. It is this power that created the same UN you talk about. Do a good homework and you will find out that since this same UN body was created it has failed miserably in its “peacekeeping” mission. Presently there are numerous wars on the face of this earth. Now the inconsistent Muslims say it easier to dialogue with Catholic. Of cause, as far as “peace” is concerned Islam and muslims will always rush to Vatican for dialogue if they are not busy declaring holy wars and sticking explosives on their bodies.

Another thing, to say that Muslims attended that burial of Pope in their capacity as good neighbors will be big lie. We all know that the pope have has been trying to woe the Muslims and other religions to join with Christian. Vatican’s ambition at the moment is to unite all religions. In doing that the Vatican is going to be the sole headquarters of the world religions Muslims notwithstanding and since the pope’s word is infallible punishment will be invoked every time his word is abused. The more the call for religious unity the more that power of the pope grows.

>I read them as much as you read the Qur'an.

Yes but the difference between me and you is that while you believe in the Injeel and the Torah, I believe none of the coherent text script of the Koran. And therefore the question of you reading the bible just as much as I read the Koran is an empty talk. Coming to think of it. The quran has some few teachings it’s founder borrowed from Christianity. If one is to say that translation of the bible has diluted is contents to meaningless writings, then the Koran is as bad as the bible. Muhammad must have written whatever he learnt from the Christians in Arabic only after translating them from Hebrew. And if so then he did wrong. No wonder muslims end up with strange teachings.

>To everyone people of the world, the Crusaders were
>Christians. people know that they were Catholics but keep in
>mind that they represent the majority of Christians in the
>world. They were so wicked that they destroyed even trees and
>killed animals on their way to Jerusalem. They were so shocked
>by the kindness of Saladin that some started saying that he
>must have been Christian because a Muslim couldn't be that
>nice. Shows you the level of ignorance among the Crusaders.

Yes but the difference between me and you is that while you believe in the Injeel and the Torah, I believe none of the coherent text script of the Koran. And therefore the question of you reading the bible just as much as I read the Koran is an empty talk. Coming to think of it. The quran has some few teachings it’s founder borrowed from Christianity. If one is to say that translation of the bible has diluted is contents to meaningless writings, then the Koran is as bad as the bible. Muhammad must have written whatever he learnt from the Christians in Arabic only after translating them from Hebrew. And if so then he did wrong. No wonder muslims end up with strange teachings.

>Maybe this view suits you as a Protestant but reality says
>otherwise. In reality, Catholics ae Chrsitians who make up
>about 60% of Christians worldwide (roughly over a billion
>people today).

If you say so then I would say that in reality those Muslims who deny Christ make up a substantial mass of human sea (esp. in Mecca during that once a year trip or is it in a lifetime) in the Islam world and they are very much Muslims. Need I mention the militant ones (Hisbollah, Taliban, Hamas and what have you) who think that by blowing themselves to smithereens and plunging planes into buildings while chanting Alahu Akbar, they obtain direct passage to heavenly bliss? And if you say otherwise then am also at liberty to say that your view suits you as whatever faction you represent in the Moslem world.

>I gave a clear example of the dangers of translating Holy
>Books. This is why the Qur'an is never translated in that
>manner.

After reading about the History of the Koran am not so sure about that statement. In fact I think you are really ignorant of The history of the Koran. Ask and I will prepare a good doc for you about the Koran writing of the Koran.

>Where did you see Muslims who question the miraculous birth of
>Jesus PBUH? If they do, please inform them that they aren't
>Muslims because they are going against the Qur'an which speaks
>a lot about the Holy Virgin Mary and the miraculous birth of
>Jesus PBUH. There is even a WHOLE chapter (chapter 19) of the
>Qur'an called Mary. Muslims have A LOT OF respect for Mary and
>is said to be among the women of Paeadise. Here are some verse
>that speak of the miraculous birth of Jesus PBUH...
>
>CHAPTER 3: 45-47
>
>45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad
>tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the
>son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter
>and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
>
>46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in
>maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
>
>
>47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man
>hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He
>willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it,
>'Be,' and it is!
>
>
>Share these verses with the "so called" Muslims who deny
>Jesus' PBUH miraculous birth.

I wish I could but I can’t. Because these fellas including you will not accept that He was to come and save this world. They will not accept there is no any other way but Christ. You know how argumentative Muslims can be. At times, even being confrontational. You believe Christ is not God’s son and they disbelieve his miraculous birth.

The bottom line is that Muhammad is not God’s messenger. And just because the quran which is his word says afew truths mingle with a couple lies does not mean that he came from God. Even Satan often quoted from the scripture when he tempted Christ in the wilderness. That did not mean that he was a messenger of God. Like I’ve said these critics, you deny are not Muslims are very much a part of you world just as you really believe Catholics are Christians.